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 Senga Nahatanzi |
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Caitlin: When did you become a traditional healer?
Senga: Oh my, my father was a traditional healer because my grandmother was a traditional healer and my aunt as well, I would help them treating. My mother was a traditional birth attendant (TBA) and even my aunt. Ladies having problems or wanting to deliver, they used to help those ladies. Me, I was just asked to bring herbs, “You go and bring this”, and the babies, they were delivered.
We had some kind of maternity clinic over there. We used to wrap these ladies, when they were naked, in a banana leaf, and we took them to the clinic. After delivery, they would bathe the mother and the baby, they would give the mother clothes and she dressed. Then, after two days, if she were an experienced mother, she would go home. They would wrap the baby in a piece of cloth and I would usually carry the baby home. But if it was her first one, you can’t dismiss her. She would stay about 3 or 4 days to learn how to handle the baby, how to feed the baby, how to bathe the baby. If she is already an old lady and has had some children before, the husband brings a bicycle and takes her home.
So it was there I started my knowing of traditional medicine.
At this point in the interview, a patient enters the room. Senga opens the book in which she registers all her patients, and then offers the girl food. She interviews her in Bugandan. She then spoke to us.
S: You know this lady, she had a problem. Maybe she wanted to have an abortion. She was having some pain down here, and her heart was beating very fast. I gave her some herbs, and now she is strong. Now she is expecting for five and a half months. I advised her to go to the hospital and she said she is going on Thursday, but her husband did not have good money to go to the hospital. I talked to her a lot about HIV.
She speaks again to the patient.
Joe: Senga requested that the patient go to the hospital and test whether she is HIV positive or not, so it will not be a surprise and she will take it as normal. She should also enter the program for mother to child transmission.
So, when she was asked if she had gone to the hospital she had replied that the husband not yet had the money. When the husband gets the money she is going to go to the hospital to be treated and will continue to be treated by the healer.
Senga looking at the patient’s hands, speaking to her.
Joe: So the doctor checks the eyes of the patient, the palms of the patient to identify some of the signs, to see if she can give herbal medicine to the patient. But the patient seems to be okay although she has not completed some of herbal medicine. The medicine she took was the local herbs preserved in clay.
Senga: (showing herbs) I have so many types with different sizes. This is called mombua. We preserve this with clay. This can last for 200 years.
(Picks up other herbs) Now this one is cooked and preserved here (pointing to bottles). I cook it; I preserve it, and give it to the patient. In my clinic, I use all type of methods, I preserve in water, I preserve in clay.
 In my clinic, I use all type of methods, I preserve in water, I preserve in clay.. |
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When someone has been bitten by a snake this can work, especially if I have seen the type of snake that has bit him. The black one, the yellow one, cobras, I just cut where the snake has bitten to take out the teeth. Some of the blood goes and I put the herb where the snake has bitten. (Pointing to an herb) This can help even a hundred people. It is very powerful.
(Pointing to another herb) This is for ladies, expectant mothers just before they deliver. In our custom, we use it to help them. The doctors don’t encourage it, but we do encourage it in our custom. That is why, today, there may be many caesarians. Before they were using it, and now some ladies choose to go back to culture and use this herb.
This is for girls who get pain when they have their periods. I can give this, she can take one or two doses, and she will never have that pain again. I understand that in the hospital they just give painkillers. When the next month comes, she gets pain and they give her painkillers.
S: There are many types of lubricants for women when they are having sex. Vaginal fluids, this herb helps that. And this one, (another herb) It is good for the expecting mother. She will be strong, she will do her work, she will never vomit, she will never smell things bad, and so this helps. There are so many herbs in my clinic.
C: What do you do for menstrual cramps? Do you have a treatment that stops this condition?
S: I am used to treating girls in school. Many girls are now having that pain. When you take this (pointing to herbs preserved in clay), you never get that problem again. I have helped so many girls. She will never get it back. In the hospital, they say if you give birth it will clear. But not so. My daughter takes it to twenty girls at college, but I say, don’t do it without the permission of the head mistress or the nurse.
Let me turn over to my patient now.
After a discussion with her patient Senga goes outside to collects herbs. I follow her to the backyard.
 In a storage room behind her house Senga grows mushrooms that are used in her traditional healing practice. |
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S: When she takes this she will be strong. This will be enough because she is going to cook it. So let’s go inside.
Joe translates: She is describing to the patient how this medicine is to be used and she gives the dose. The first question she asked when she came back is do you know this medicine. And the patient acknowledged that she did, and that she was using it all along. So, she is saying that the patient should cook those leaves, and as she cooks the leaves, she should stir so it is mixed well. When it cools off, she can take it at night. And the following day she should make a pot and take it like that. Then, come back to the healer so she can see the progress of the patient.
Senga then speaks of some of her other herbal treatments: And this herb is for whenever ladies have had an abortion, When they are bleeding, and, even if I am not around, someone can take a clean (bowl), grind the herb, and give it to the lady. By the time she leaves, she will have stopped bleeding. You can advise her to go to the hospital to find out what was causing the bleeding, but in most cases, the baby will not come out. I don’t give this herb to the ladies, I just keep it. She takes it only once. So that one is for miscarriage.
C: Where did you learn about all of these herbs?
I learned from my mother and grandmother but now I am adding to what they knew. This title of Senga refers to the fact that I work with reproduction issues. I help young girls who are going to get married. I help people who are already married when they have problems. I help young girls when they want to know cultural practices. Fortunately, I know many cultures in Uganda from talking to people and visiting places, but I know Buganda more because I am Bugandan. I treat many children. I am very experienced in their fevers, worms - there are about 14 types of worms in Uganda now. Some types I cannot treat and I refer to the hospital but most of the types I treat, even old people, adults.
C: You are certainly an herbalist!
S: Now in a workshop when even the president was around, I talked on how we can avoid getting HIV. To abstain, faithfulness, condom use, but what I stress is avoiding HIV by building our cultures or trying to avoid those bad cultural practices. I advise them not to use the same knife when circumcising boys. It should be hospital circumcision. Other cultural beliefs cause HIV as well. For example, if a husband dies, the brother marries the wife.
C: Is there female circumcision in Uganda?
S: In Sebei they were doing it, maybe they have stopped. But you know, the reason they were doing it, they wanted to spoil the lady that she doesn’t have interest in sex with other men. Now they are forced to stop it and even some girls learn from their parents not to have that kind of thing. There has been a bill that has been passed in parliament. The husband wanted to dominate the wife as they had so many wives and he wanted to cut her off from other men so men wouldn’t enjoy her. When you look at the part where they were cutting, they really spoiled them because they were cutting the very sensitive part of the lady.
C: And the practice of pulling and extending the labia?
S: It is very common here. You know, we should encourage it.
Senga draws a picture of labia and clitoris. She point to the labia.
S: The part where they pull is this part. They pull those things (labia) about two inches to come down here. When someone is standing, it hides this part (the clitoris). They are very nice.
Rose: what is the reason for doing this?
C: And when do you start this practice?
S: We encourage her to start about 6 to 9.. After she gets menstruation the body will be getting hard, but there are some good herbs, which can help if she does it later.
But I want to tell you some of the men are not straightforward with their wives. I get so many cases. The bride-to-be comes here and they say we have talked of this….and I ask her what the fiancé said. The girl says even if I don’t have it (extended labia) it is okay. Some men are not straightforward but some men are. (Many men think it) helps the woman to look nice. Even the doctors at the hospital, when they are going to do pelvic exams, they just put (the labia) aside and put in their fingers.
C: If a girl starts this at 6 to 12, does she pull on the labia to extend them?
S: We advise them to do it at night. When she is coming close to finishing she will start feeling shy and she will not want to bathe with her brothers. And I advise her now that she is a grown up, it is not proper to stay out without knickers.
C: When she pulls on the labia she can give herself pleasure, is that not so?
S: But then she must get some counseling. I advise these girls when to touch and where, and if they never touch the wrong place they will never come to climax.
C: Is there a taboo against masturbation?
S: I know masturbation. However, when you touch on either side, there is no way
Joe: What she is saying is that masturbation is discouraged in our culture. .
C: Would you say that a woman who has extended labia gets more sexual pleasure as an adult?
S: We get pubic hair so that we are grownups, but similarly, when a man does those things with a lady (when she has extended labia) he knows he is having sex with an adult. But when she doesn’t, she seems like a small girl. In our culture, especially when a man is used to those things, he will enjoy the girl more.
C: He will enjoy it more. My question is, will the girl enjoy it more?
S: Yes, of course. Forgetting the suffering, she has gone through (to extend the labia). You know, it is not a suffering when you get a good herb. You don’t force it, you just touch, touch, touch. We make holes in our ears, we put on earrings, and we look nice. I can see on the Oprah program, that woman are taught to pierce their ears. When you have pierced ears, it helps even the earrings not to be lost. Here, this practice is very common and now all the tribes know it while before only some. Now all the tribes are mixed. It is very common and I advise young girls to do it. And when you are getting married, I have an expert lady here who can help you to do it within three weeks.
C: It is interesting there is someone who can help her.
S: I myself can do it, but I travel a lot. But sometimes we get so many, especially on Sundays, they come about seven. Now they are very much interested in it. They know how things go. You get a boyfriend, he starts despising you, and he asks you, if he is straight forward, he asks you to do it.
 'You look so feminine when you put it on.' |
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There are some men in my day who couldn’t come up to a climax without this. When you put this on, you look so feminine, the hips. Some men can’t come when they don’t touch this, especially when they are used to it.
S: (Addressing Caitlin) Do you (in the US) use this?
C: No we use lingerie, lacy underwear, often scant, sometimes bright colors,
S: When the business starts you remove them?C: Some men like them removed, some don’t.
S: Whenever you walk towards the bed with this band of beads, the man will know there are no period problems, that she is ready for sex. It is an indicator.
C: A woman cannot ask for sex in your culture?
S: Yes we do, in giving him something to eat, some coffee.
Joe: A woman cannot come and just say, ‘I want to have sex’, but she does it through actions and the man always knows. Especially when she puts on those beads.
C: When a girl is getting married what will you teach her?
S: I will teach her to know what the husband wants and what they don’t want based on my experience.
C: What does a husband want?
S: Whenever a husband buys a dress and gives it to you, you must look at it carefully. You look at the color. You look at the fashion. This is where our girls go wrong. A man will buy her a dress and give it to her as a gift. And when he asks her to go out with him, she will put on a mini, not what he gave her. It is better to ask which dress he would like her to put on. He will tell you. He feels more proud when it is the way he likes rather than you putting on a mini when he wants you in a traditional dress. You see what he likes and what he doesn’t like, and you try to amuse him.
When I teach girls I must stress cleanliness in marriage. I ask them to keep the bedroom as clean as possible. I teach them to know the body language of sex; you must know your friend. You know there are some girls, some ladies, after lunch, especially on Sunday, he asks her to have a rest. “No, I am going to prepare food for supper”, or she starts playing with the kids. He goes, he waits, and she put him off. He will be so disappointed, he will start hitting the children standing in his way, and he will become violent in the home.
Joe: On top of what she has mentioned, she teaches girls how they should react in the action of sex. That kind of fondling, how they should do it.
S: Yes, according to the environment. When you are in a house without a ceiling, you cannot start screaming. Even the man tomorrow will be afraid to go out. (laughing) But when the two of you are in the house and it is private. And to know when and where to talk about problems. Whenever you talk about problems repeatedly, you don’t open a new page and the man will get fed up. You open another page.
C: What would you do with a girl with low sexual desire?
S: (She gets an herb from her cupboard) This is an herb. The one brings desire. And when she is wet, the vaginal fluids help the man to demonstrate all the styles he likes. When a woman is dry, he fears she is not happy with him. But this herb can help you to have enough fluid. When a man touches those things I was drawing there (the labia and clitoris) she will lubricate. You know the body is well prepared.
C: In South Africa they like dry sex. Do you know about that?
S: There are some styles you cannot do when a woman is dry. There is a difference between styles and positions. There are some styles when a woman is on top, when she is down, there is this (she shakes her fist back and forth). Sometimes the male can do it and sometimes the woman. That style is very delicate when the woman is dry. It is too dangerous, she can have sores.
C: What is that?
Joe: The man uses his penis to play around just at the entrance of the vagina. The woman will secrete more and more.
C: How has your work benefited from a relationship with Theta?
S: Oh my, I benefited a lot! They used to call us (traditional healers) witchcraft, but when I joined Theta in 1992. we started working with western doctors. They told us to be clean, they told us to keep records, they taught us about packaging herbs. We were already counselors as traditional practitioners, but now we learned counseling techniques, asking questions, looking at the patient, making a friend with him. Now it’s really nice. They taught us documenting our herbs, we were taught so many things, and now the project Bridging the Gaps has started, and really helps as well. You know, before, our western doctors were despising us. They said ‘how do you know this is syphilis’? ‘How do you know fever?’ ‘How do you know, you don’t have machines for diagnosis?’ We used to treat from experience, from symptoms. Each disease has its own symptoms through my experience. Now, Theta worked a lot to see that we come together and the patients will benefit because there are some diseases that we, traditional healers, treat better, and there are some diseases that we can’t touch. So, if those western doctors agree to send us patients, we send them patients. They gain more and the whole country will gain.
Joe: Especially the low-income parents fear going to hospitals and they run to the healers. When they talk to healers like this one (referring to Senga), they gain a lot. I have been here six months. What I discovered, the comfort they get, they are almost talking to a mother. In fact, with Senga, we have organized something to help sustain these people (referring to the tilapia farm visited below). They have to pay some little moneys. Now what we did we are generating a project so they have a little money to provide for themselves and their families. My discovery is that many of these people’s problems are because they low incomes. In fact, if you have time you can see what we are trying to do.
C: What are the challenges in your work?
It depends on which type of disease. Sometimes I give free of charge because the patient might come without money. What I want is for the patient to be happy, not the money. Well I need the money but sometimes you fail to get it. She or he might come without anything, and come when you have seen them already, He uses an herb and he comes back to collect another one. You can give him some to continue his dose. What presses me most is the patient that doesn’t finish up the dose. He takes a little, and when he feels a little bit better, he doesn’t turn up. Even western doctors experience that, especially sexually transmitted diseases. They don’t normally finish the dose, which is very dangerous. It makes the disease very stubborn when the dose is not finished.
C: How have you mobilized your clientele? How do they know about you and how do they view your work?
S: I treat a person; he goes away. He is cured, he sends another one (for treatment). For me, I don’t advertise on the radio, but I am coming to be known from that. Even the people of Theta, they used to send me patients when they know what I treat. Sometimes they give me a ring on the phone and ask what are you doing with this disease. In most cases, they direct their friends.
Rose: Do you have any type of support groups?
S: Widows, affected and unaffected. We want to create jobs for them. Some of them get HIV through ignorance, but I think our project will involve so many people because it is big.
Joe: The basic goal of the project is to employ these people and prevent them going back to street, to engage them.
C: Many people associate traditional healing with witchcraft. What have you done and, as a Theta trained traditional healer, what can you do to avoid that public image?
S: This was happening before, when people were doing sorcery. People would think that this traditional healer over there is the one who did this. There was a time when I asked people to do homework among themselves to address who is doing that thing. They found some people who were not even traditional healers. What do you do? You bring in the law enforcement people and show them where you bathe your patients and they get to know your work. You know, sometimes some of them were treated in your clinic. You don’t ask anybody to go and bathe in the road crossings.
Joe: For she is very open with her work, it is done in broad daylight so all can view what is going on. The authorities always visit here; they even check the hygienic practices in the clinic. This is how she disassociates from people who sacrifice.
C: Anybody can report such abuse?
S: It can be done by any person. Anyone can report Senga is the one that sacrificed this child or this lady. Well, if the case was reported to the police, the police investigate.
Rose: We (at Theta) are trying to tell the public we are traditional healers but we do not practice witchcraft, that is what we are trying to tell the public now.
S: I was talking to Parliament one day and said a traditional healer cannot be a traditional killer. That is someone who sacrifices people. I heal people. And even the people around me, they know. Most of my patients don’t come from nearby. They won’t come if they know I am a killer.
Joe: Witchcraft is more inclined on the spiritual side of things. Someone who does his work when he is possessed is practicing witchcraft. But one who does his work under normal circumstances, when very well sober, that is a healer.
C: Senga, do you believe that too? A traditional practitioner who becomes possessed is always practicing witchcraft?
S: Not all of them. Some who practice witchcraft just pretend. I can give you a story. There was a lady who was caught. A boy came to her complaining he was not getting money. When she was possessed, there were two people, a girl and a man, who were there. She said to the boy (when she was possessed), you go and bring a goat of two legs and we cure you of being poor. So, when the spirit goes off of her, the boy asked the healer what is a goat of two legs? I have never seen one. These people who were seated there when the lady was possessed said that is a human being, not a goat as you think, The boy went away.
Senga speaks to Rose: Did you hear about the boy who killed a girl? So the boy took his bag, he went and started looking for a young girl. The lady who was possessed said ‘you get a goat of two legs but that goat must have never played sex. Do you get me?
So when these people told the boy you must get a human being, the boy understood that he must get a girl who is a virgin. He went to his home and started looking for a girl who was a virgin. He came to that girl who was killed in Atuaka. He got the girl when she was coming from the shamba, he cut off her head and put it in his bag. He wanted to take it back to the healer.
But people came running after him, following him. When he got to the healer’s they denied everything. ‘Ahh, this is not the goat I sent you to bring. Go away with your weird thing’. The boy started running and hid over there but was caught. When I was in the National Council. that is when I heard that story. We went and visited that lady when she was in jail. We said who told that boy to bring a virginal girl. She said, ‘ahh, for me I don’t know what the spirit will be saying. I was possessed’. But she is still there up to now. That is how the girl lost her life through a lady’s possession. Some of them are possessed, some dream.
Some of us heal when our mind is sober.
C: Possession, your feeling is that all possession is negative. My sense from what I have observed is that it is not necessarily negative. It depends on the nature of the person. A person who is angry and destructive when possessed may be even more angry and destructive.
Does that make sense?
S: Yes, it does.
C: A person who cares about the well being of others, who feels connected to other’s wellbeing, when they are possessed they may receive a certain kind of intuition about their patients. But I understand in your work you are sober. And you do a lot of teaching?
S: Yes, I am a trainer of trainers. I was trained by Theta to work with HIV/AIDS and many other diseases. You know, so many people are hiding in us. Some of them are profiteer healers, they don’t know the medicines, they don’t know what is going on, they say they can cure HIV, which is impossible. When you are trained by Theta you can’t say you can cure HIV. We know all what they told us, how to live positively, how to protect our bodies, how you can help your friends, We learned caring, support, helping the patient to make wills, helping the patient to get support, we were taught all of that by Theta. But some of the healers who were not trained by Theta do not know how to be sympathetic to HIV positive people, to wear their shoes, because it is a disease that can never be cured. By the time the infected person reaches me, he or she has finished all his money. You have to give them herbs, which can relieve the pain. All the diseases come; many are diseases we have treated before. Headache, fever, problems with eyes, sores, skin, diarrhea, vomiting, those are the diseases we are used to treating. That is why we are part of the team fighting it. We are included in the research with the government although the regulations for our traditional herbs haven’t gone through to the Parliament but they are dealing with it. Traditional herbs do help HIV and there are some diseases that we, traditional healers, can cure.
C: How many patients do you have?
S: Many, my book is full. Sometimes I get three, sometimes I get 8, sometimes 2. Before ARVs came, I used to get so many patients. (She shows me her book for registering clients) Whenever it is red that means that patient has TB. I do treat TB. But most of the patients here are HIV infected people. Some now are getting ARVs, others are fed up with getting ARVs for the rest of their lives, but I don’t accept them and take them back. Whenever you stop ARVs it means something else.
Rose: What diseases do you treat mostly?
S: I treat ulcers, worms, diabetes, HIV, as young as eight, as old as 70.
I am a diabetic. I take insulin tablets when I get an infection, a cough or malaria, but when I don’t, I can control my diabetes with my herbs. I was advised by my doctors to loose weight because I was so fat. I test myself. I take traditional medicine mostly.
At this point, we concluded our interview. We drove Senga and the young accountant to the site of their project for a tilapia farm.
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It was an ingenious plan, taking a natural spring that was being used by no one, routing the water through a few pipes to a site where deep ditches, about seven, were being dug, all parallel to one another. In another area, there were cages filled with tiny tilapia, waiting for the troughs to be filled
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Men digging one of the ditches for the tilapia farm
This young accountant helped Senga develop the tilapia farm to help financially sustain those in need in her community. Behind him is a cage filled with tiny fish that will soon be released into the troughs now being dug.
Following are transcriptions from the second interview two weeks later.
C: In your experience how many women who are married or in long term relationships are experiencing orgasm?
S: I think out of a hundred, 20% of the women. the rest they don’t, for many reasons. The main one is that some men are ignorant of when a woman has come to climax. Secondly, some women are not open to men and don’t tell them they haven’t come. The men don’t even know the signs of a woman reaching climax and if a woman is not straightforward, the man will never know. They produce four or five children and still no climax. They used to come here and I would give them education. When the woman comes to climax, oh my, it seems as if the heavens have opened!
C: The woman I am staying with, when I told her I was interviewing you she said, ‘Oh yes, I know women who go to Senga’s but where’s the man?’ The women get this education on pleasuring men but not the men!’
A client walks into the room. Senga greets her and gives her some water. After asking a few questions, she turns to us and tells us something of her history.
S: This is Mrs. ……She brought her daughter four years ago to see me. The girl came here complaining she didn’t have her periods regularly. I did a short examination and touched her finger like this, and told her. ‘Oh, you are pregnant.’ I asked her to go to the lab to confirm, and she did and was told she was expecting. To prevent pregnancy she had been taking family planning tablets. I persuaded her not to abort, the thing grew, and she delivered. Now she is using my traditional family planning.
I can train you to count the safe days. I can tell you to breast feed the child until two and a half years. There are some other traditional methods as well. I put a charm somewhere, and whenever you play, if you have it, you will never conceive.
C: (In some disbelief) Where do you place it?
S: I place it in the beaded hip jewelry. When you want to conceive again, you remove it..
C: When you place the charm, have any of the women become pregnant?
S: About 2 or 3, but they used to play sex without it. You know, that charm I can use it with young girls when they are still at school. But you have to be indirect about it, because if you tell her straight forward she will get so many boyfriends thinking she is very safe. She can’t get pregnant but she can get AIDS.
Joe: For those that are at school and are not ready (to get married) she sticks it on a knickers or petticoat and lies to the girl. ‘You use this charm and it helps you’, maybe pass exams. So in case she messes up somewhere, she doesn’t conceive.
C: There is nothing in western medicine that would indicate that a charm would have that effect.
Client speaks, translated by Joe: She has another daughter, and when she started menstruating, she was feeling a lot of pain. They visited medical centers and clinics and were advised to take certain medicines, but they failed. She was puzzled and came to Senga. Senga asked her to try her medicine. The first time she took her medicine the pain disappeared. It has now been four years and she has not felt those pains.
S: Madame, I helped her. She has a good family. The lady is a local council leader in charge of local environmental protection. I helped their family and took them to a charitable organization that helped to send their two kids to school. This foundation helps the family and sponsors 10% of their school fees.
C: How many treatments did her daughter have before she stopped having cramps?
S: the first time they came, I prepared 2 bottles of medicine through cooking and distilling, and this is what the patient took. It took about a year. Now the daughter has had four years without pain.
S: Another thing I didn’t explain to you. This thing helps me a lot; I treat my diabetics with this. (She pulls out her pendulum) When I get a patient that is seriously sick or has suffered and is very weak, like AIDS, and terminally ill, I use a pendulum. When I use this thing, I never go wrong. I can prescribe herbs that will be very useful.
Now I am going to test myself for fibroids in the uterus, I don’t think I have any. She puts some medicine from the bottle into a cup. She takes the pendulum, puts it above the cup; it swings to right and left. “When it does like that, it means I should not take this medicine. When it comes towards me when it swings, it means I need that herb. I can test the patient with this pendulum and I can’t go wrong.
When I go to Zambia I cannot take a meal until I have tested. I use it with my patients to see what medicines will be good for them.
C: Do you find it works equally well for all people?
S: Yes, especially if you have a chronic disease like diabetes, you can use it to test your diet.
(Taking out some garlic cloves from a basket)
S: When somebody has taken many medicines and the liver is toxic this will remove the toxicity. I use 5 pieces of garlic if the person is heavy. Take it 3 days, 2 times a day. A touch of honey or sweet banana will help the taste so the stomach will digest it.
C: (Directing the question to the patient) What do you think is most helpful in family planning?
S: (translating) The best is the charm they clip into the beaded sexwear I showed you. It is the best one to use. After the pregnancy she breast feeds for one and a half years, now it has been three years and she has not gotten pregnant.
C: Is she also using the rhythm method, are there some days during the month when she doesn’t have sex?
Joe: Sometimes she uses the rhythm method but she says ‘you know men, sometimes you cannot refuse sex because you are already married’. If she is not safe, with the medicine, the business just goes on. She doesn’t mind so long as the charm is there.
C: Does she have orgasms?
S: Yes
C: How did her husband learn to pleasure her or was she part of the fortunate 20%?
S: The husband is very good in that business. He knows what to do. They have been together twenty years and they always have had enough pleasure.
C: How did he learn?
S: Sometimes his grandmother taught him, his friends, films, books, some are lucky but some can be as dull as a doormat.
Joe: Sometimes it is personal initiative, testing this or that to find where is the pleasure and then you find more and more.
S: When a husband has two or three wives they can discuss it. When they sit down, they can talk it over. If it is her days, she can send the man to her co-wife.
Yes, when the man is having two wives, he can move during those days or the wife can invite the mother to stay with them. Those eight days, she can go to the mother and spend the night there.
C: If her mother is there…?
S: Even the mother of the man.
Joe: What happens in our culture, you don’t have to share the same house with your mother or the mother of your wife if you are married. When those safe days come, your wife takes a visit to one of your mothers and they stay in the boys quarter to avoid the man coming in during those unsafe days.
C: In South Africa there were women who were secretly using contraceptives. I stayed with a woman who was secretly using the coil. She did not tell her husband. Is that common here?
S: Yes, but for me I don’t advise them to use it. There are some styles that can damage the coil if the man doesn’t know. It is very unsafe when the husband is not informed. And even if the husband is not sensitive, he can feel the string. It starts from there, he asks what is this!
Joe, laughing: What has encroached in my garden!
S: This is not advisable, but there are other means. A doctor can make a tiny incision in the upper arm and places a tab in there, it can lasts for five years. And it doesn’t have many complications. Many of my customers are using that now. That is very easy to use when the husband does not know. But the coil, tablets, injections, I hate it. She can grow very fat and lose the desire for sex. And you get blood every month. You look so lovely but you lose the desire for sex so there is trouble in the bedroom. You look so sweet and you don’t want to be touched.
C: How often do you encounter girls who have been abused as children, or there has been some sort of sexual abuse?
S: My dear friend, this business of defilement it very common in Uganda, and it hasn’t started in modern times. It was there but the media was not so inquisitive. We elders, we kept silent; we kept taboos, kept them within the elders. Even government ministers can rape their house girls, can rape the sisters of their wives, can rape secretaries. My dear, I am telling you it is very widespread. Some women decide to keep quiet because when you go to court, they ask you so many questions. They bring in your knickers, they ask how he raped you, so some girls fear reporting, but there are so many cases.
I receive many, many, many, many cases, even those who are being raped by their husband, but here in Uganda many are denying it. Even to the Parliament they deny it, they say how can I rape my wife!
Joe: So men in Uganda don’t believe they can rape their wives?
S: Yes. Women are being raped and most of them most keep quiet. And the bad thing is when a girl has been raped, she will loose interest in sex. When she gets a boyfriend she will remember the incident, it stays in her head. She will wind up with a fear throughout her life. It is very bad to be raped. Whenever you think of it, you become irritated.
C: Very common in the US too. What percentage of the girls that come here have been abused?
S: About 25% to 30%. Some are being raped by their brothers, their relatives, from somebody who gives them a lift. He locks the windows when it is night, he rapes her over there. These Nilotics, they are very aggressive, you can’t rape them. People in our area, they are very shy and keep quiet. That is how they get AIDS, they are being raped. But those northerners there, they are very aggressive, you can’t play with her, and she will even bite you.
Joe:. She is saying in the southern part of Uganda, when women are raped, the women fear and they don’t even spell it out. Those people from the north, they are stronger, it is not easy to rape them. They fight it off.
C: How interesting that the Nilotic women have the courage and have permission to fight off rape.
S: It is in their culture; even if you marry her, you can’t have sex like that. Even if you go for a honeymoon there will be a fight over there at the coast. He can chase her for many miles, get her, put her down, get to the business, and he will have succeeded. If you fail to get her down on the ground, then you will never marry her. Because of that kind of training, it is not easy to rape anyone from the north. And they are strong, not like southern Ugandan women.
You know when a third party comes into the relationship, they should discuss it. When I am counseling them, if I have gathered enough information that the man is having another lady or if the man finds that the woman is having another man, you better stop sex for some time and take tests to see if the other party comes with HIV. During that time I encourage separate the beds, the man lies there and the woman lies there. In our tribes here that is very difficult. But with the Bachiga tribe they have managed. She will beat you or finish you up. If that time comes, and you have to separate for some time, taking tests, you stop sex with her. With other tribes, women also go to another room, but the man will go there at night and fight her and do the business and without a condom. You see the struggle there. But with the Bachiga, you can’t play with a Bachiga woman, when she is there saying no sex, you can’t take her.
C: Some men cannot achieve orgasm unless a woman is wearing beads. Have you seen any other behaviors in men that may be necessary for them to achieve orgasm? Men’s behavior tends to be more varied; women tend more to avoid sex.
S: Can I give you an example? Men need comfort. Men need good meals. When you don’t prepare good meals, you can’t win a man. You see some of them, how they fail. He might come back saying I got into trouble down there, they wanted to take a calf from me, She thinks he was there with a girlfriend. She doesn’t even bother to say sorry, to ask him how it went. The other girl comes back saying ‘daddy, sorry, sorry, sorry’. That comfort the girl gives a man, it goes directly inside and from there he can start loving that girl.
S: Men want good meals, and when I am counseling my girls that are preparing for marriage, and even older woman who come for counseling, it is one of my lessons. Prepare good meals. Men are very bad with the stomach. He is very fond of somebody who prepares good meals for him. That is why here in Uganda these girls took over the marriage. The wife stays in bed, she doesn’t prepare breakfast for their office. Then when the men go to the office, these small, small girls come kneeling, ‘Uncle, what shall I bring, coffee, tea?’, speaking softly, and the man puts in his order. He will start there to love that girl. After three months, they are carrying babies, and those babies are from the company directors. That is how they get them. But those ladies who stay in bed without preparing breakfast, it is very bad. The man wants comfort, he wants someone who can cook a meal, he wants someone who can say sorry.
C: Senga, what do you say to women who want comfort from men?
Senga laughs!
S: Some ladies are fed up. They say you give us counseling but you don’t counsel men. The men can’t even say thank you after meals, so it is good also for the men to know what pleases the ladies. Ladies want gifts. I asked some men when your lady returns from the hospital, please buy her material or a necklace. You have appreciated the pain she has gone through. Many women wants gifts, she wants to be loved, and it is very good to be loved. Even if you bring her a sweet, she will appreciate it. She continued in Ugandan.
Joe: What she is saying is that caring is very fundamental in love. She was giving an example of an uncle of hers who had three wives. He had to manage three wives. He would buy pancakes, and when he saw that one of the wives was in one of the corners he would go silently there and tell her “have this, you are the best among the others”. So she feels like she is being loved. Then he went to the other room and finds another wife and says to her “take this, you are the best, you are the best” and gives her pancakes. Then he would do the same for the third. They all felt that they were loved and he could control them like that. It is also fundamental to the issues of the bed. If there isn’t that comfort and there is a lot of stress, there is no way you can do the business.
C: What percentage of couples in long-term relationships that you see has comfort and caring in their relationships?
S: Especially when a woman is also working I counsel her to be as available as possible, because men want to know where she is, he doesn’t like to miss you, to hear she is going to work overtime and it wasn’t explained to him. Make yourself as available as possible.
C: In the US, there are a number of homosexual people who come for counseling. Do you ever see homosexual clients? It is unacceptable here; people say they have no respect for homosexuals.
S: Here people do not want homosexuals, they do it privately. I don’t support it; we don’t like it here in Uganda. But young girls used to do it in schools.
Joe translating Senga: Some time back, in Magunga especially, there were a few who developed that kind of lesbian behavior. They totally discouraged it so it is at its lowest now. Romancing, buying gifts, befriending and trying to help each other, and it would end up in some kind of romantic relationship. But it was discouraged and stopped. But they did not go as far as sex but touching breasts and kissing, writing love letters to each other. They were seniors during the ’60 and ’70. But it was discouraged; if a girl wrote a letter to another girl she was dismissed. It was in the schools, the government schools, and the Catholic schools.
C: You said that with the extension of the labia it increases the ability of a woman to have pleasure.
Joe translating Senga: It is very fundamental to sexual pleasure. President Amin referred to a woman who had not enough labia to be like a child. For someone who has short things, it takes a very short time. When someone has long, there is a way to prolong the business.
C: For the man or for the woman?
Joe: Both.
Rose speaking to Joe: Does it interest you?
Joe: Very much, in fact if someone is not having those things, psychologically, the first thing you develop is that this person is not enlightened. Possibly, she doesn’t know what to do. And you know, there are many things in that business, so you begin imagining maybe you are not going to enjoy yourself with her and that fails you somehow.
C: So do you find the women who have the extended labia have more pleasure?
Joe: Yes, those things are correlated, the pleasure and the lubrication. With the longer labia, the lubrication is facilitated and the business takes a longer time. You feel like you are really doing something. If it is dry, it is rough, there is pain. When you meet someone very small labia you know lubrication will becomes a problem so you loose interest.
C: But it doesn’t necessarily help her to have orgasms if only 20% of the women are having them.
S: When a girl has extended labia the man will demonstrate the styles that will bring her to the climax. But when you don’t have the lubrication the man fails.
Joe: You get enticed to try what you know. But if that place is dry, you forget everything. If it is well lubricated, you exploit.
C: I understand that it allows you to prolong the sex and take more pleasure. Still, as a man, you have to know how to pleasure a woman.
Joe: Yes, you have to know other things, what you have to touch.
Rose: Is that why some people fail in marriage?
S: Very much. I have seen 40-year-old men who come in here and say, when I met my wife I thought I could cope with her, but now I need help. If the Madame is willing, she can come here. But specially educated girls who say ‘I will never do that, that is for prostitutes, not for us decent ladies’, then the marriage breaks.
Joe: The problem is when the man tests outside the marriage. You find It’s like getting raw chips and then prepared chips, eh? So you have to deal with raw chips at home and prepared outside the marriage.
C: In some cultures, you notice that the women do not have a way to express anger and grief; they are not allowed to express strong, painful, emotions. But the spirits that possess them can express those strong emotions that the women culturally cannot express. Has Senga ever noticed that connection?
Joe translating: She has noticed it but she was adding something interesting. She has noticed in normal human beings a lady cannot get to orgasm is she is having anger in her pregnancy. That total excitement can never come out.
C: Has there ever been any research on your herbal treatment for menstrual cramps?
S: (showing how to use the medicine that has been preserved in clay.) With the menstrual pain, it takes some time but when it cures, it never comes back. Most of my patients don’t want to be exposed. ‘Why should I be on TV,’ they say.
We talked about the possibility of some research, that she would welcome the opportunity to have her cure tested. Senga would also like to do research on women who are barren as she has been successful in treating them.
Senga has a wealth of knowledge, but research on women’s health, in Uganda as elsewhere, is not a priority.